tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142008555966981507.post8124710395379091938..comments2024-03-18T12:46:36.137-07:00Comments on My Albion: Hungary's Royal Trinity - a brief introduction to the cults of the Hungarian king-saintsSteffenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01891266202142841626noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142008555966981507.post-62941571509149292732014-05-23T15:11:38.010-07:002014-05-23T15:11:38.010-07:00Thank you for your reply, and I'm glad you fou...Thank you for your reply, and I'm glad you found this interesting. <br /><br />As for the connections between Central Asian steppe mythology and the medieval cult of saints, it has long been suggested that the cult of saints replaced the pagan polytheism in newly-converted areas, such as Hungary or Norway. This view has increasingly fallen out of favour, or at least been the subject of a more detailed exposition. I don't doubt that the polytheistic worldview of pagan mythologies made it easier for them to adopt the cult of saints - in the same way that the salmon imagery of pagan Ireland coincided with the fish imagery of early Christianity - but I don't think that the cult of saints seamlessly replaced the pagan mythology or that royal saints of the Árpád dynasty were championed by the Hungarian kings as a revamped version of the steppe mythology. I think that these saints were championed for the purposes of 1) gaining favour with the church, 2) ensuring that the dynasty had patrons in Heaven who could commend them unto God and 3) embellishing their own standing among its people. <br /><br />So in short, I don't think that the Árpád desire for saints was informed by pagan currents. Rather, I think that this was a Christian enterprise meant to strengthen the dynasty in the eyes of God, the church and the populace. This can be suggested by the fact that of the five saints canonised in 1083, three of these were clerics, not kings. Furthemore, the desire to have many saints in the family was not unique to the Árpáds, it can also be found among the Capetians of France and the Plantagenets of England. That this desire sometimes went unrequited, however, is another matter. <br /><br />I hope this answers your question. I'm not an expert on Hungarian history, however, so feel free to counter these arguments.Steffenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01891266202142841626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142008555966981507.post-32497030257857750462014-05-23T14:56:44.979-07:002014-05-23T14:56:44.979-07:00Thank you for your reply. You're pointing out ...Thank you for your reply. You're pointing out one of the important strands of the Investiture Conflict, but of course the image is much more complex. The canonisation of a member of the royal dynasty was not only a benefit for that dynasty, but also to the church which through that canonisation tried to appropriate the saint and to present itself to that saint as worthy of his or her benefices. This is part of the reason why we see an upsurge of royal saints in the 12th century. One example of this is how the monks of Westminster Abbey commended themselves to Edward the Confessor - their secondary patron saint - in the liturgy.Steffenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01891266202142841626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142008555966981507.post-25564975198839202642014-05-12T13:52:30.281-07:002014-05-12T13:52:30.281-07:00All kingdoms tried to have as many saints as possi...All kingdoms tried to have as many saints as possible, which is understandable not as a new form of sacred authority, but as strenghtening t=of the king's position against tche Church. In post-karolingian catholicism the libertas ecclesiae (11th c.) expelled the king from any power within the church, and kings wanted to regain some of the power (nominating bishops etc).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142008555966981507.post-8751706781629859752014-05-11T22:25:24.050-07:002014-05-11T22:25:24.050-07:00Thank you very much for this. I found it most inte...Thank you very much for this. I found it most interesting. I'm Hungarian myself and have naturally heard a great deal about our "Holy" Árpád Dynasty, which is said to have given more saints to the Catholic Church than any other.<br />Interestingly, in 2000, the Patriarch of Constantinople recognised St Stephen as a saint of the Orthodox Church.<br />I have an idea, which I'd like to suggest to you. I have often wondered whether the Hungarian's steppe heritage didn't inform their desire to have so many saints in the ruling dynasty. Among the steppe peoples, rulers were supposed to be "holy" and chosen by God. This is shown in the lives of Atilla as well as Genghis Khan and many others, such as Duke Álmos who was prophesied in a dream and so on.<br />I think the Christian version of the "chosen by heaven" concept is that of a saint. Maybe not quite "the son of heaven" but still very special in the eyes of God and also the people. <br />What do you think of htat speculation?<br />Outsiderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17787281757806097576noreply@blogger.com